Tag Archives: guilt

311. You want me to do what? (TJ and Kim Part II)

311

I shared some background about my new friends, TJ and Kim.   My relationship with them has evolved over the past 6-7 months.  While some of this should be in past tense, I write using a current tense as I am sharing it with you for the first time.  I think that makes it easier to follow, no?   Anyway, I babble too much. . .   

I left off stating that Kim began sharing details of her sex life with me.  More to the point, the lack of details.  Kim rarely has sex with TJ, and it’s been that way throughout their marriage.   Yes, they had sex enough to have two kids, so yes, they have sex.  But rarely.
As I learned, it was Kim that had a lot of sexual hangups.  Hangups she openly admitted. 

She grew up being told sex was dirty, naughty, and the only acceptable response to sexual desire was guilt and shame.   So, yeah, there’s that. 

I mentioned that she knew TJ and his ex-wife, Shelagh, even before they were married as they ran around the same circle of friends.   She said she always had a crush on TJ but felt she couldn’t “compete” with Shelagh.  She knew Shelagh well and knew Shelagh to be bisexual, open to threesomes, and basically open to anything sexual.  She wore her sexuality on her sleeve, which was in contrast to Kim, who locked it away buried deep inside her soul. 

Kim had limited sexual experiences before TJ.  She had sex “a few times” with a boyfriend that was fairly serious and they dated for almost six months.  She admits the break up had to do with her reluctance to have sex.   And it wasn’t about “saving herself for marriage.”  She made it clear to the then boyfriend that it was what he should expect from her always.  She even told him, “Sex is something I don’t enjoy.”   

She had a single one-night stand that she “forced herself to do” as she put it.  She just wanted to break out of her sexual shell and thought that might do it.  It didn’t.  It only made her feel worse about herself and about sex in general.   

She even “messed around,” as she called it, once with a woman, but stopped it before they went too far.  She said it was in reaction to trying to “be like Shelagh.”   

She admitted she had this admiration for Shelagh along with a simultaneous feeling of disgust, all wrapped in jealousy as Kim was attracted to TJ.   She always thought of TJ as unattainable and that he wouldn’t ever go for someone “like her.”  She saw Shelagh’s appeal to TJ as being 100% sexual and always imagined they had incredible, crazy, non-stop sex.   Kim said she felt so disconnected because she couldn’t even imagine the word “incredible” and “sex” could go together but just knew that it did for other people. 

Kim also doesn’t masturbate and had a traumatic experience as a child when she was caught touching herself.  It makes me angry to think about it.  She said she was only 8 or 9 and had no clue about what sex was or that it even existed as a thing people did.  She simply noticed one day that it felt good to rub down there.  She said in her mind it was no different than say, the feeling of a good stretch or a cool washcloth on a warm face.  It wasn’t sexual in her innocent mind.  It just felt good. 

To her parents, you’d think she had just strangled a baby.   They were mortified.  She says it took her years to even understand all the terrible things they told her as the thoughts her parents projected were so foreign and over her young head.   While she didn’t understand the meaning, she did understand they were terrible things.  She said her parents said a lot of things, but two words stuck with her.  Even though she didn’t understand what that meant at the time, she understood they were terrible things.  “Pervert.”  “Deviant.” 

Who would call a child such a thing?  And it wasn’t like they just overreacted and let it drop.  For years her parents, especially her mom, would bring up that incident as an example of her abnormal behaviors and thoughts.  

FAST FORWARD TO MARRIAGE
Shelagh and TJ got divorced and Shelagh dropped out of their social circle.  Kim and TJ always talked here and there, but the talks became more frequent and then turned into actual dates with just the two of them and not their group of friends.   Kim said that once it was clear they liked each other and were dating, she knew she would have to force herself to perform all the wild things she had conjured up in her head that TJ and Shelagh must have done. 

Kim said that once they had sex it was obvious to TJ that something was up.  He could tell she was “uncomfortable yet ambitious.”   She vividly remembers those two words because at the time she told herself, “That’s better than pervert and deviant.”   They then had a frank conversation about sex.  She remembers it as one of the most mortifying discussions she ever had.  Here’s this guy she has always had a crush on, who she thinks expects gymnastics in the bedroom.  And here she is, worse than a sexual novice, she was a sexual desert, void of any positive feelings about sex. 

He told her that the sex was not as important to him as simply being around her.  At the time she interpreted as “let’s just be friends” but, to her amazement, quickly realized that no, he still wanted to be dating her.  To be clear, he did tell her that he enjoyed the sex they had, and would enjoy more of it, but that he understood if it was something she didn’t want to do very often.   She said she didn’t have the courage to tell him, “Very often?  How about never?”   

They did have sex here and there but said it was always something “she allowed” TJ to do to her.  It wasn’t something she did to him or that the did together.   How sad. 

Clearly, TJ accepted this.  They got married and had sex enough times to have two kids within four years.   Kim said that at the time, having sex with the prospects of getting pregnant was the first time she had an inkling of enjoyment out of the sex.  She looked at as “sex with a purpose” and that purpose didn’t include feeling the pleasure that was “deviant or perverted.”

Oddly, Kim said that her feelings about sex are compartmentalized as to apply only to her.  She understands others enjoy it and wants others to enjoy it.  She said even thinking of her daughters as sexually active someday doesn’t bother her.   She said she knows Hailey masturbates and even offered to buy her a vibrator (which she said Hailey embarrassingly declined and said, “Mom!  Are you nuts? I don’t want to talk to you about that.”  Kim said she told Hailey there wasn’t any need to talk, but that it was okay and fine if she ever wanted to talk or wanted a vibrator.

To me, it’s incredible to hear that, and other examples she shared of being very sex-positive with her daughter.  I often find the “sins of the parents” are often instilled into their kids who can’t help but project the judgment of their own parents onto their kids.  And while I know it isn’t always like that, rarely is it the opposite extreme of openly rejecting that judgment.   Good for Kim, and if only she could reject that judgment on herself.

TODAY (as in a few months ago)
Kim told me that she and TJ have sex a few times a year.  She does oral on his birthday, and beyond that, it’s just penis-in-vagina sex.  She does let him finger her, but she rarely touches his penis.  She says she thinks she has climaxed a few times but isn’t sure (which to me, means she hasn’t).

She told me she really wishes she could open up sexually, but it just horrifies her.  I suggested counseling but she said that horrifies her even more.   She said she can barely talk about it with TJ, is totally weirded out by talking to me about it, and can’t imagine talking to a stranger.  She said she is only able to overcome her fear and talk to me because I seem so at ease with my sexuality.  (Yes, Kim asked me all sorts of details and I shared them as if sharing a favorite recipe).

Then, one day, she told me she had something to ask me.  I recognized her expression and awkwardness.  I’ve seen it before.  It meant that the topic had something to do with sex.   My mind raced with what it might be as I had been sensing she was wanting something sexually from me.  What she asked me was not the “something” that I was expecting.

Next: 312.  Oh, you want me to do THAT!

299. PSA – Stop Being so Hard on Yourself

299

Wow, three days in a row of posting! Yea me!

I ended a prior post with,  Love without limits, and you get loved without limits. “

I need to add, Love YOURSELF without limits, and you can then love without limits, and get loved without limits.”

NEGATIVITY BIAS
Sometimes it’s worth taking a break from the salacious kinky stuff and make sure emotionally we are dealing with any negative thoughts that may arise from our hedonism.  I wrote of this in 277. Understanding myself and my submission, and even a bit in 246.  Subconsciousness of Wrong.  I only recently came across an article that has prompted me to revisit that topic

Let’s face it, when it comes to our kinks, society conditions us to feel guilt, shame, and more shame, and then more guilt mixed in with a bit more shame, all in nice big guilt wrapper with a giant shame-bow at the top.  There’s an undeniable negativity bias regarding our feelings when it comes to our kinks.

BIAS BIAS EVERYWHERE
I have always been intrigued by bias.   I believe I included this link before about the
12 Common Biases that Affect How We Make Everyday Decisions.  or perhaps the 15 Logical Fallacies You Should Know Before Getting Into a Debate.  Yeah, we all have biases and we all fall for various logical fallacies at times.  And since no one seems to teach critical thinking, society seems to be falling for more and more of these.  But Trump followers notwithstanding, “negativity bias” is especially insidious.  

“It can lead to ruminative thoughts that interfere with our productivity, and it can impact our bodies by stimulating inflammatory mechanisms that lead to chronic illness and accelerate aging.”  (That sentence sounds better when said with an English accent in my head.  Try it and I think you’ll agree). 

Sure, those aren’t my words, they are from the article.  But it’s saying, negativity bias can literally kill us.   Instead of me giving my dime-store analysis on negativity bias, I encourage you to read the article linked below.  It is absent any kink (sorry you pervs), but has real-world application to everyone, especially kinksters who may sometimes have negative thoughts about their proclivities.

I do want to add this comment though – I consider myself very self-compassionate.  Sure, I tease myself about different things.  Did you know my boobs are saggy?  Yeah, I’ve never mentioned it, except maybe once or a hundred times.  hee-hee.  Anyway, my favorite line of this article is that self-compassion spurs positive adjustment in the face of regrets.

I think my Domestic Discipline journey has been all about positive adjustments in the face of regrets.  In fact, being spanked is in many ways a positive adjustment in the face of regret.    Yeah, I just connected self-compassion with allowing my husband to spank me.  {Mic drop}.

Okay, enough from me.  I strongly encourage you to check out this article.

Next: 300. Don da da don! 300th post – and it’s Intense!

 

178. Embracing Shame

shame

I posted before about how Kayla’s submission is different from mine (Post 111. DD Jenny Style vs. Kayla Style).  I thought I’d revisit this as I’ve been thinking about the feelings I get versus the feelings she gets from being submissive and from being disciplined.  Writing about this then morphed into something a little different.  It led me to dive more deeply into my feelings, more specifically, my feelings of shame, and why I embrace that feeling.  Hey’s it’s been awhile since I’ve had an esoteric ramble.  Indulge me! 

Words won’t tell the complete story because words carry different meanings for each of us.  Whatever words I use will probably be taken to mean something different by some of you, and those differences may be small, or may be large.  Overall I would say Kayla’s submission has more “grit” to it than mine.  The discipline she receives is more harsh than mine.  I am tempted to use words like demeaning or humiliating but I know Kayla does not see it that way.  She likes to frame it as her finding growth, healing, and thus ultimately satisfaction, in feelings of shame and embarrassment in front of Mike.  She does not label what she feels as feelings of being demeaned or humiliated.

It made me think more deeply about the differences between humiliation and shame and led me to further embrace shame. 

HUMILIATE VS HUMBLE
Humiliation connotes disgrace or disrepute.  It infers feelings that clearly cross over from simple humility into, well, into humiliation.  But, the definition of humiliation includes “shame,” and “embarrassment.”   Hum. . . the exact words Kayla uses to define her feelings on being disciplined.

This just underscores for me that words are power and the same word can mean different things to different people.  It would be easy for me to label what she goes through as “humiliation” and while many of the feelings she gets fit that definition, she would never describe it that way.  Interesting.  And I am sure some of you would label what I go through as “humiliation” and I would never describe it that way.  Interesting indeed!

I know some of you may be like me and view humiliation as a more intense and unpleasant version of humility.  Other may see them as essentially identical, so much so you may be fine with exploring deeper and deeper senses of humiliation.   Nothing wrong with that, but that’s not me.  But, it does seem to be more to Kayla’s liking.

DEGRADE VERSUS SHAME
Clearly humiliation and shame are at least cousins, if not siblings.  They come from similar places but carry a different meaning.   And what “humiliation” is to “humbled,” I think “degrading” is to “shame.”  The definition of degrading also includes the word shame and humiliation. So again, in a lot of ways all these words are the same — but yet different.  The difference is in degrees as measured by each individual person.   To me, being degraded is like humiliation and shame on steroids.  To others, simply being made to feel shameful could be considered degrading.

One of my feelings during discipline is a feeling of shame.  Shame for my behavior and a keen awareness of my guilt.  I often think that is why discipline is so effective.   The various negative feelings anyone may have about their behavior is often locked up deep inside, behind their pride and arrogance.  Unlocking those feelings often require more than just a talk.  Domestic Discipline helps unlock those feelings.  More precisely, the shame that discipline evokes helps unlock and purge those feelings.

CRYING
Here was an interesting connection for me.  Kayla said the likelihood and degree of her crying during discipline correlates to the degree of shame and embarrassment she was feeling.  I sort of knew this, but never fully connected that.  When she said it, I immediately recognized that I feel exactly the same way!   While the actual physical pain might be part of any crying, it is more about the emotional release of the guilt through the shame.  Very much the reason I cried during the last spanking I shared.  The more shame I feel, the more likely I am to cry.

Both Kayla and I agreed that embarrassment also plays a small part in the “cry factor.”  The first ten times or so of being disciplined carried a lot of “embarrassment” factor, thus more tears.  Likely from a combination of nervousness from uncertainty along with the embarrassment from the vulnerability of being naked.  Of course, then there is the whole feeling of knowing you are going to be spanked.  There is still the occasional feeling of embarrassment when we do something particularly bad.  For me it is more likely to come with a repeated offense.

I have evolved in my submission where I feel greater absolution, greater nourishment, greater release of negative thoughts, a greater connection with Mike, a greater connection with who I want to be — all through feeling ashamed of my behavior or attitude.  I believe this is why I evolved from needing Mike to “correct me” when I failed myself, i.e., “My DD,” to needing him to do so when I fail him, i.e., “DD for me.” (Post 167. What is “Mine” versus What is “For Me”).  Further, it is why I wanted him to make lecturing or scolding me a regular part of my Discipline.  For me, it carries more shame to fail him than it does to fail myself.  Through that shame, I heal, I improve, I achieve, I love.

Any discipline I receive is a process that leads, sometimes painfully, to the point of awakening my sense of shame.  And the greater my shame, the greater the tears.  Discipline as a deterrent is not just about the unpleasantness of being spanked , it is about the even greater unpleasantness of being made to feel ashamed of my actions.

NUDITY
Thought I’d comment on this since I mentioned it as part of the “embarrassment” factor.  It goes beyond just embarrassment.  Heck, my husband has seen me naked countless times.  It is not about shame regarding my body.  Far from it.  It is about vulnerability.  We are naturally more humbled when we feel vulnerable, thus it feeds into the feeling of humbleness (or humiliation if you prefer).

Oh – nudity, at least being bare-bottom at a minimum, also serves a functional purpose in discipline.  It is wise for the Dom to be able to see the results of what they are doing so as not to inflict unintended injury.

LECTURING
In the past, Mike did not lecture or scold me during Discipline.  Sometimes he would say something briefly about what I did, but it didn’t amount to scolding.  I wanted to add this to our dynamic and Mike readily agreed.  While I have yet to experience it, I am more afraid of my first lecture than I am of my next spanking.   It makes my stomach turn to knots and I can almost cry just thinking about it.

I can imagine his lecturing will make it painfully clear (as in emotionally painful) that I let myself and him down.  That he must take and is willing to take this drastic action because he loves me and knows it is for my own good.  I know he prefers not to spank me, but his greatest preference is to not encourage my misbehavior.  He has that preference because he loves me and he knows it is also my preference.  Just thinking about all of this makes me want to cry – and then you add the physical discipline to it.   Yikes!

DISCIPLINE CEREMONY
I thought it would be helpful to add this.  I think having a Discipline Ceremony also feeds into my sense of shame.  You can read about our Ceremony in our Contract.  Having to remain silent, having to collect the implement, having to stand in the corner, having to assume whatever position he asks,  or whatever else is expected of me during the Discipline — all have a humbling, thus shameful impact on me.

Shame from the Ceremony.   Shame from Nudity.  Shame from Physical Discipline.  I am accustomed to those.  Now, we have Shame from Lecturing.  I talked with Mike and forewarned him I may cry like never before the first time I have to be Disciplined under our newest agreement.   I don’t want him to be caught off guard by it or misinterpret it.

I embrace shame.  I embrace it as my healer, as my absolution, as my willingness to submit to Mike.

NEXT: 179. Kayla’s Social Life

79. Anxiety, Resentment, Jealously, Guilt

jealous

I am very anxious. I need to purge my emotions, so apologize in advance if this becomes a rant. I don’t think I am saying anything I haven’t shared with Mike and Kayla, but perhaps some new or more constructive ways to express my feelings will emerge.  This is a continuation of what I’ve shared in this post and this post, and in this post as well.  Sorry to have to share as the events unfold, but it sure is great therapy to write this.

This whole thing with Kayla has me all out of sorts and I can’t put my mind to just about anything for more than a few seconds without it drifting back to our situation with Kayla. I already talked about the risks that concern me, such as the increased need to practice safe sex, the implications of Kayla being someone who our son is close to, and my motherly instincts being more prevalent when I interact with Kayla and thus makes it harder for my mind to see her in a certain way. In addition, my concern that her neediness may cause problems.

What if we pursued something?
Putting everything aside that I previously stated, the other issues are that if we did pursue a sexual relationship, what exactly would that entail?   F*ck-buddies?  Would she partake as a submissive?  It sure seems to be leaning toward the latter…and submissive to just Mike, or perhaps to me as well?  What would that be like?   These are all questions I’ve posed and the three of us have discussed. And here is where we stand.

F-buddies?
I only use this term because Kayla had used it to describe her relationship with her best friend and her best friend’s boyfriend. Kayla said that she does not want that for the three of us, that we mean so much more to her and that it is so much deeper than just a physical interaction. She talked of saying she would end the sex with her best friend if we all pursued a relationship. She even used the term, “I love you guys.”   And of course, we love her, she knows that, and we said so.   While that could be a good thing, to me, it is part of my struggle.   The situation could set her up for disappointment or hurt later on. I can only imagine what being “the third wheel” could be like and beyond disappointment and hurt, it could build resentment on her part.   Bottom line, it could turn our great relationship into an unhealthy one for her. That has implications for all of us.

And, just what kind of relationship would this be?   I guess it could be called poly, which I’ve never really considered. I have no qualms with that term, but, is that what this would be? Kayla uses the term “relationship” so there seems to be a certain level to commitment she is willing to make, but are we?

Her as a submissive?
When I think about this I actually feel two feelings that rarely surface in me. I feel a level of resentment with a dash of jealousy.   I am not a jealous person by nature, it is very un-me! I don’t like it. Here’s what’s going through my mind.

Waves of Resentment.

  • I work hard on my submissiveness, she may not take it as seriously as I do. She may not be committed to it as I am. She may look at it as simply a game.   I resent all of that.
  • What rules would she have? Same as me? Different? If different, are they less/more restrictive than mine? If she can do something without punishment but I can’t, well, that’s just messed up. Who does she think she is? I resent that.
  • Would she also be accountable to me? I like that, but we would have figure out how that works as ultimately I do want Mike to be the ultimate authority figure and I want to be fair with Kayla. However, I like the idea that there is something to remind Kayla that despite her participation, she is not my peer. If she thinks of me as a peer, I resent that!
  • Her level of commitment could never be consistent just due to lifestyle. She lives with her mom and goes to school. What, she comes over now and then when she chooses?   It makes it seem more like a game for her and not a lifestyle. Again, I take my commitment seriously and she will just be unable to do the same, even if she wanted to. I resent that!

Add in some Guilt.
Then I begin feeling guilty. Why wasn’t my first response to Kayla not one of compassion but instead a series of assessments as to her “fitness” to be with us?  See, the resentment is already manifesting itself in unhealthy ways as it poisons my empathy and compassion.

I shared just about everything I’ve written here with her, and of course, it did make her sad and she cried.  Not a full on cry, but teary eyed and emotional.  I know it wasn’t just in what I said, but in the manner in which I said it.  I know my tone was somewhat biting.  I apologized for my tone and tried to explain that it is not about a deficiency in her, it is about the realities of where she is at in life compared to ours and that despite our mutual love and respect, it just may be incompatible to the type of relationship we are considering.

All of my concerns are just as much about my own baggage and needs as it is about hers.   Ug, that sounded a bit like, “it’s not you, it’s me.”   But I want her to know I don’t see her as unworthy.

Dash of Insecurity?
I also have concerns about priorities. Will Kayla be a high enough priority for Mike and I that we do right by her, and will we be a high enough priority that she does right by us?  In other words, do we end up just considering each other as “available options” or is the relationship to be more meaningful than that. Not that whatever we have can’t be casual if that is what we decide, or that it can’t be more meaningful if that is what we decide, but each route has implications.

We all are works in progress to some degree, but Kayla, given her age and background is just more so.  I also am aware that whatever issues a person has they bring to any relationship. That’s a given and by itself not necessarily a problem.  But it can become one if that person is not willing to work on their own issues or allow help from their partners.   So far Kayla has impressed me with her own self-awareness of her needs, her strengths, and her weaknesses.  Including her willingness to seek advice and guidance and be open to constructive feedback.  That’s a plus, but apparently not enough to eliminate my concerns.

While I have been very impressed with Kayla’s reaction and responses, it has not lessened my anxiety about all these things. Yes, she has some needs, but don’t we all. She’s loving, caring, and self-aware, has some abandonment type issues with her parents but recognizes that and does not shy away from it. I can see that this could be fun and could be meaningful. But, my life is so good right now, and has already moved pretty fast in just the last 18 months. None of the positives I see with Kayla are enough to reduce my anxiety, resentment, and jealously, nor reduce my guilt for feeling anxious, resentment, and jealous.  And then we have the concerns I first expressed in my other posts.  Concerns about complicating my life and the fact Kayla is someone special to my son.

All these bad feelings.
 
Sum it all up and another significant roadblock is whether or not we could ever have an arrangement where I don’t feel these negative feelings.  I don’t want to feel these things but that doesn’t change the fact that right now I do.  I know these feeling would end up manifesting themselves in various unhealthy ways. Unhealthy for me, my relationship with Mike, and for Kayla.   If I can’t get past these feelings, we just can’t move forward.

Mike and Kayla both seem to be outpacing me on this issue. While they are not dismissive of my concerns, they feel more carefree about just diving in, living life, and what happens will happen. I have reiterated with Mike that I stand by my commitments to him and will abide by anything he decides.

Where we are today
Mike said we should having a “cooling off” period so we all can reflect and continue to discuss our feelings.  That makes me happy and does reduce my anxiety a bit.  Mike set a date of November 15, where he said no decisions should be made before then. We’ll reassess on that date and he may decide we continue to wait or not, assuming Kayla is aboard with what he decides – which apparently she is.

One question I posed to Kayla that she has not been able to fully articulate is how she sees this dynamic working in her mind. What does she see as the ideal situation for her?   She has shared bits and pieces but hasn’t thought it through enough, so I am hopeful some additional time will allow her to understand and share her own needs and expectations better.   I hope that for myself as well.

Next:  80.  Breakthrough.  What a Week!